tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266476550583850985.post5158400883714079989..comments2024-02-29T14:00:48.160+00:00Comments on AVERAGE OPPOSITION.COM: Top 50 Big Game Scorers: 5-1Liamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04824662356080199075noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266476550583850985.post-70655500067644730002014-12-09T10:35:39.179+00:002014-12-09T10:35:39.179+00:00why Pele's goals in world club cup finals, cop...why Pele's goals in world club cup finals, copa libertadores finals and semi finals, copa america tournament goals are not included and equivalent of this tournaments of Muller and Stefano's are included?!Sir Arturhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07234871441986661162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266476550583850985.post-67652189029794341252013-01-30T23:41:01.573+00:002013-01-30T23:41:01.573+00:00I left out the Champions League/ Copa Libertadores...I left out the Champions League/ Copa Libertadores Semis…<br /> Naturally they will follow the logic of the rest of the weightings.<br /> That is 0.25 pts for each leg, adding up to 0.5 pts total, half the ones of the respective Finals.<br /> <br />I have rated the World Cup with 4-5 pts, a lot higher than the Euro´s 2 pts. Since South America has roughly half the World titles, even with Europe hosting more World Cups, it makes sense to say that European teams have twice the chances to win a Euro tournament compared to the World Cup. I found the difference of Euro 4 – World Cup 5 too little considering also that Europe has hosted the WC 10 times and South America only 6. In wins it is 10-9 for Europe.<br /> I found that your rating of 3.5 for all games of the Final Group stage, and not considering the opponent, was too much compared to the Final giving an unfair advantage to some players.<br />STnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266476550583850985.post-74514250735719109712013-01-30T23:40:43.711+00:002013-01-30T23:40:43.711+00:00about Copa America 1959. Both were considered offi...about Copa America 1959. Both were considered official, but the one in Ecuador was called “Extra”. Still one can include both and cut their points by half.STnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266476550583850985.post-78703461938197709032013-01-30T23:40:19.156+00:002013-01-30T23:40:19.156+00:00My point system would besomething like this, with ...My point system would besomething like this, with possible corrections:<br /> <br />World Cup Final: 4-5 pts<br /> World Cup Semi: 2-2.5 pts<br /> World Cup Final Round(1950): match among two best placed teams counted, points like a final: 5 pts, and against third placed team as 2.5 pts.(in other words the Brazil-Uruguay match counted as 5 pts and the game against third placed Sweden as 2.5 pts)<br /> World Cup Second Group Stage(1974, 1978, 1982): match among two best placed teams counted, points like a semi: 2.5 pts<br /> Euro Final: 2 pts<br /> Euro Semi: 1 pt<br /> Copa America Final: 1 pt (as long as it is every two years. 2 pts after 2004 since it is now every 4 years)<br /> Copa America Semi: 0.5 pts/ 1 pt after 2004<br /> Copa Amercina Single Group Stage: match among two best placed teams counted as 1 pt, and against third placed team as 0.5 pts<br /> Intercontinental Cup: 1 pt. (0.5 pts each leg)<br /> Champions League/Copa Libertadores: 1 pt (may sound little, but the tournament is every year, not as much pressure)<br /> UEFA Cup/Cup Winners Cup/ Copa Sudamericana/…: 0.4 pts for Final, 0.2 for two legged final.(I say 0.4 and not the more obvious 0.5 since I would not consider a player winning both UEFA Cup and Cup Winners Cup as important as winning the European Cup, therefore the combined points of those two still add up to 0.8, less than the 1 pt of the EC. Ronaldo is one example of winning Uefa and CWC in 1997 and 1998, but still does not equal a CL win in my opinion.<br /> All methods have flaws, and the competitions have not always had the same status. Today most World stars play in Europe, before the 90s and 80s it was not like that.<br />STnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266476550583850985.post-81827193861702111122013-01-30T23:39:53.336+00:002013-01-30T23:39:53.336+00:00Hi ST, I think the fact that there were two held i...Hi ST, I think the fact that there were two held in the same year would suggest that it was the right decision not to include it.Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04824662356080199075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266476550583850985.post-51447317682361963332013-01-30T23:39:38.818+00:002013-01-30T23:39:38.818+00:00As for Copa America 1959(called then South America...As for Copa America 1959(called then South American Championship), the one Pele played in(there were two that year) was the most important one, held in March and the one were Brazil sent its full squad, with Nilton Santos, Didi, Zagallo and other World Cup winners. In the second one held in Ecuador Brazil sent a B squad containing only Pernabuco based players.STnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266476550583850985.post-39632568786468094732013-01-30T23:39:19.018+00:002013-01-30T23:39:19.018+00:00Hi St, check the points weighting on the first pag...Hi St, check the points weighting on the first page of the Top 50 posts. The world cup final is 5, the Euros is 4 and the semis for each are one less than the finals it’s the European cup semi that is worth 2 points, not the European ChampionshipsLiamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04824662356080199075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266476550583850985.post-4859127498304319242013-01-30T23:39:01.033+00:002013-01-30T23:39:01.033+00:00If South Americans had an advantage because of the...If South Americans had an advantage because of the two legged final, I think it is fair to reduce the weight of each leg to half of European Cup Final.<br /> I think the weight difference of World Cup Final and European Cup Final of just 1 point is little.<br /> Also some inconsistency here: WC Final 5 pts, semi 4pts<br /> Euro Final has double the points of a semi, Final 4 pts, semi: only 2 pts.<br /> It is a bit conflicting. How can the FInal of a WC be just 1 point more important than the Euro, and at the same time the Semi twice as importnant as the respective Euro semi?!<br /> <br />About the Intercontinental Cup: The European teams cought up in the last years, in the 90s and 00s. The difference was a lot in favor of SA in the past. More matches means a bigger sample gives a better idea.<br /> Actually Pele is stil ln a disadvantage, since Santos voluntarily withdrew from Copa Libertadores on FOUR occasions in the laste 60s.<br />STnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266476550583850985.post-12664999117113981042013-01-30T23:38:15.327+00:002013-01-30T23:38:15.327+00:00Hi ST, thanks for the comments.
The 22-21 split ...Hi ST, thanks for the comments.<br /> <br />The 22-21 split of Intercontinental Cup wins would suggest that I’m not favouring either region here. It’s also my opinion that European Clubs don’t take this competition any where near as seriously as their South American counterparts – as an example, Ajax (1971 and 1973), Bayern Munich (1974 and 1975), Liverpool (1977 and 1978) and Nottingham Forest (1979) all pulled out of the tournament, despite being European Champions.<br /> <br />With regards to the Copa Libertadores starting 4 years after the European Cup, they also have two legged finals, and on regular occasions, had a third round as a play off. If anything, there’s been far far more Finals in this competition which gives the South American based players a big advantage.<br /> <br />On the Copa Sudamerica, I’ll hold my hand up and admit that as the UEFA/Europa League competitions were included, so too should this. However, looking at the final scorers of recent times, it would have little impact on the Top 50 list as it’s only been going since 2002.<br /> <br />With leagues being decided and relegations avoided, there’s absolutely no way that anyone could monitor every single professional league in the history of World Football to decide which game is a big one. Similar with domestic cup finals – there’s too many countries. I explained this in the into piece:<br /> <br />http://www.averageopposition.com/2012/08/the-top-50-big-game-scorers-of-all-time.html<br /> <br />As for Pele, he’s in at number 3. I didn’t include the 1959 Tournament as it was a one off, and it wasn’t the Copa America. And with the cup final goals and league deciding games, then it’s the same as above – I can’t include those games in the Brazilian league in the 1960′s and not Top Flight games from every league in the history of football (or at least since the war).<br /> <br />I appreciate your input, but it’s just not do-able, and you do show a slight bias to Pele!!<br />Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04824662356080199075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266476550583850985.post-57017830618311232682013-01-30T23:37:03.814+00:002013-01-30T23:37:03.814+00:00You have not included some goals like Pelé´s goals...You have not included some goals like Pelé´s goals in Copa America of 1959. He was top scorer with 8 goals in 6 matches in single-round Group stage Tournament with no Knockouts!STnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266476550583850985.post-10336925287123000652013-01-30T23:36:40.281+00:002013-01-30T23:36:40.281+00:00The list is favouring European based players playe...The list is favouring European based players players though. South American teams have an advantage of 22-21 wins over Europeans in the Intercontinental Cup, which was not included here.<br /> <br />Copa Libertadores began in 1960, which gives European players a further advantage of 4 years since the European Cup started in 1956.<br /> <br />Copa Suramericana is not counted, but UEFA Cup, and Cup WInners Cup are.<br /> Semi-finals of Big tournaments are included, but those are not the only big games. Many league games are title deciders, and some Big tournament Group Stage games are also very important.<br /> Pele for example, has 26 goals in his 15 career finals.<br /> <br />All major finals played by Pele: <br /><br />(Libertadores, Brazilian and Intercontinal Cup are all<br /> second leg (or third decisive game) goals, if not specified later on) <br /><br />World Cup – 1958 – Sweden 2 x 5 Brazil . Two goals by Pele. Brazil won their first ever world cup.<br /> <br />World Cup – 1970 – Brazil 4 x 1 Italy. 1 goal and 2 assists by Pele. Brazil won their third World Cup.<br /> <br />Libertadores – 1962 – Santos 3 x 0 Peñarol . 2 goals by Pele. Santos won the Libertadores for the first time.<br /> <br />Libertadores – 1963 – Boca Juniors 1 x Santos 2. 1 goal and 1 assist by Pele. Santos won their second straight Libertadores<br /> <br />Copa America 1959 – Argentina 1 x 1 Brazil. 1 goal by Pele. Brazil lost the cup held in Argentina to the hosts by total points overall, although they were unbeaten!<br /> <br />Taça Brasil – (it was the most important national tournament in Brasil) <br /><br />1961 – Santos 5 x 1 Bahia . 3 goals by Pele. Santos won their first brazilian championship.<br /> <br />1962 – Botafogo 0 x 5 Santos. 2 goals by Pele. At the Maracanã, Santos beat the legendary Garrincha, Didi, Zagallo, Nilton Santos, Amarildo team to win their second straight Brazilian championship.<br /> <br />1962 – Santos 3 x 2 Benfica. 2 goals by Pele. First leg of Intercontinental Cup.<br /> <br />1962 – Benfica 2 x 5 Santos. 3 goals and 1 assist by Pele. Santos are World Champions.<br /> <br />1963 – Santos 2 x 0 Bahia. 2 goals by Pele. Santos won their third straight Brazilian championship.<br /> <br />1963 – AC Milan 4 x 2 Santos . 2 goals by Pele. 1st leg of Intercontinental Cup in San Siro.<br /> <br />1964 – First Leg. Santos 4 x 1 Flamengo. Pelé scored 3 goals. Second leg: Flamengo 0 x 0 Santos. This is the only major tournament decisive game Pele didn’t score. Santos won their fourth straight Brazilian championship.<br /> <br />1965 – Vasco 0 x 1 Santos. 1 goal by Pele. Video of first and second leg goals: Santos won their fifth straight brazilian championship.<br /> <br />1966 – Santos 2 x 3 Cruzeiro. 1 goal by Pele. Santos lost to the legendary Tostão team after winning 5 straight brazilian championships.<br /> Look at Tostão free kick<br /> <br />Pele total record in career finals : 26 goals in 15 matches!<br /> 1.73 goals per game average!<br />STnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266476550583850985.post-23123048204251686142013-01-30T23:36:20.559+00:002013-01-30T23:36:20.559+00:00Comments posted on 30th January have been imported...Comments posted on 30th January have been imported from the old site.Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04824662356080199075noreply@blogger.com